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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 7:41 pm 
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SiENcE wrote:
This is the UO:KR 3D Client. They faked us the same way as with the old 3D Client. But here is the World in fake 3D but the Creatures in 2D. (old was vice versa)

No real 3D. They just use a 3D-Engine, but you still have Iso-View.


In other words:

The world ( buildings, items etc ) are 3d rendered.
The avatars, npc's, monsters are 2d sprits ( or just the monsters are 2d? ).

And because the monsters etc are sprits, they can't offer a rotating camera.

But for my personal opinion, i don't have a problem with them staying with a iso-view. Hell, in my opinion, this offers a lot more advances then just full rotating 3d view. One of the main problems with a full rotating view, when in first person perspective or 3th person perspective, is the LOS problem.

With iso-view, you control the maximum amount of items in a screen, thus, the world can look great, and you don't suffer from that annoying! world loading of tree's, grass, buildings in the distance.

Hell, if there is one thing that annoys the crap out of me, its how a mmorpg looks great in screenshots, but when you actually play it, you need to deal with the constant loading of everything in the distance. Or the clipping of the camera in walls when you enter buildings. Or the constant jumping of the camera position...

And from a level design, its way more easy to create a iso-view design, because you know the exact angle where people will be looking from.

O, a quick question. Those screenshots on the development log, are those build using Iris2 & custom map making tool ( aka, to finally have the ability to build a map, and items from within the client? ).


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 8:47 pm 
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You mean the "LOD" (level of detail) problem right :D

To me, if done right, both iso/free cam can be attractive. I always liked the engine they used in Dungeon Siege 1, so fast yet very pretty.

But now that the buildings and scenes are 3D, can Iris use this to its advantage?

Regards,

PQ


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:31 pm 
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With patch 6.0.0.0 and 6.0.1.1 they fixed a lot of Mapbugs. This is good for Iris2 too.

Quote:
O, a quick question. Those screenshots on the development log, are those build using Iris2 & custom map making tool ( aka, to finally have the ability to build a map, and items from within the client? ).


please look here: http://www.iris2.de/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1043

You are already able to add dynamics and if your Server allows it you can static this dynamics. So you are already able to build small thing. For later we want to add an offline Buildmode.

You can already view the statics in Debug mode. Just go in Debugmode from mainmenue and hit F1. Than you can view all statics (2D and the 3d representation if avail.) hitting key "f" -last & "g"-next.


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 2:18 pm 
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Iris is using models from UO 3D verision, can we use then new models of monsters etc. from KR?

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:22 pm 
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It depends on ... what fileformat they use. Is it already documented...or any oss loader available.

If, we can display it as billboard. But than we have to fix the cam, because of the angle.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:56 am 
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If the above claims are right (abo 3D world + 2D sprites in KR), then hopefully what Iris can do is import the world and merge with the UOTD character models. This will be one more step closer to a full 3D UO.

If their file format aren't as open as before, I'm sure someone will figure it out with a little bit of time.

This leaves one question, what do we do with items and other static tiles? :P

Regards,

PQ


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 2:08 pm 
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If they use 3D Statics, we can display them. But it always depends on their fileformat ;).


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:15 pm 
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New Screenshots from Taiwan from UO:KR

http://www.ultimaonline.com.tw/event/05 ... index.aspx


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 9:03 pm 
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http://www.uo.com/fof/fiveonfriday62.html

Quote:
"Why are roads ugly in 2D now?"
The short answer is - it's an inadvertent byproduct of making roads in Kingdom Reborn look pretty, and it's something we plan to fix. The long answer is, well, long. Our lead designer Nick Corea (Dragonhead) answered this in more detail:

In KR, the terrain is rendered completely differently than in 2D. In 2D, each terrain type is represented as a set of tiles. Each set has variants that break up the repetitive nature of the tile set. (You can see this in many of the housing tilesets.) Each set also includes transitional edges that help make the changes from one set to another (dirt to grass, for example) look more natural. With so many different 2D terrain types, all of this leads to thousands of terrain tiles.

For Kingdom Reborn, we wanted the terrain to look more natural and blend smoothly from one type to another. We use several layers of textures to produce large areas of the same terrain, without obvious, distracting repeats. Since we did this with larger, blending textures rather than individual tiles, KR has no need for the terrain variants or transitional edge tiles. But we need to have KR and 2D work with the same data, so we needed to convert thousands of different 2D tiles to less than 200 terrain types for KR. Under this plan, the original data would be (and for the most part is) preserved.

Once the converted roads were seen in KR, it became apparent that they were hard to follow, with their edges blending too well with the surroundings. And since roads are just dirt tiles, we couldn't automatically make "roads" more distinguishable. All that "dirt" was only considered "road" based on context. Therefore we came up with a new terrain type, "road stone," that would look like worn, partially overgrown cobblestone. The KR world building team tracked down all of the roads in all the maps and replaced the centers of the "dirt" roads with "road stone". (It looked pretty darn good.)

In order to keep 2D looking more or less the same, we copied the 4 standard dirt tiles to a new location in the terrain texture list, and set them up to translate to "road stone" in KR. The only problem was that since we converted KR back to 2D, all "road stone" KR textures mapped to only ONE of the 2D "road stone" dirt tiles. All 4 variants are available, but are not yet used. This makes the road areas look repetitive and, well, ugly.

But fret not!

We are currently adding the variants to the roads as fast we can, starting with areas most populated, but it looks like we should be able to break-up/improve the look of all the roads in the game. There are other terrain tile sets in 2D (water, for example) that have a similar problem, for similar reasons. If our current roads plan works well, we will likely attack some of those issues as well.


Anyone knows how it works now?


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:52 am 
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that means
1. World terrain is still in 2d (we sort of expected that)
2. Old tiledata are a gonna now
3. the sector tiling matrices (8x8 map block) stays, no need to change server packets
4. Iris probably cannot benefit from this change.

Am I right?


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:30 am 
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1. Worldterrain was always 3D (old 2d client). Because in the map files are stored x,y,z values. Thats 3D.

2. I hope not. They need somekind of definition of the height, walkable falgs aso. Otherwise walking checks are not possible. Maybe they don't use a tiledata but something other.

3. 8x8 is a must for UO thats true.

4. I hope...becouse they use now splatting textures. But i don't understand this:

Quote:
But we need to have KR and 2D work with the same data, so we needed to convert thousands of different 2D tiles to less than 200 terrain types for KR. Under this plan, the original data would be (and for the most part is) preserved.


When he is speaking of 2D he means the old client, right? So they converted over 1000 2D-Client Terraintiles to 200 different Splatting Textures for KR.

Of some reason, the roads don't look good with splatting textures. So they created a new texture "road stone" for KR. Therefore they need to make Tiles of this KR-Texture for the old 2D-Client. Now they have a problem mapping this 4 Tiles to only one 2D road "dirt tile". <- I don't understand why. Sorry.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:09 am 
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I would disagree with the statement that map is rendered with 2d methods, it perfectly looks like this was done under heavy usage of d3d methods.

Let me start with a 'what would I do'-example to achieve a more modern aproachment in mapping technique:

first, see what they already have:
- A map format, already in use.
- a client and a whole server architecture, they'll have to stay compatible to
- lots of tools
means: there should be as less changes to other systems as possible with the biggest amount of changes in using/interpreting those files and formats.

'Old UO' uses a very modest way of drawing a map by concatenating tiles one to another. As we know, this way affords that transitions between different tilesets (grass<->dirt) needs own transition tiles and various tiles are needed to create a scene that doesn't obviously look repetetive. So we also have 4 or more tiles of grass just to create a field that doenstn look mechanical.


More modern appraoches to receive the same result is to use just _one_ splatting texture over a bigger field of tiles that should look the same. Imagine it like playing LEGO. The old way was to lay many many little blocks right to each other to create just a fundament, while LEGO now produces a big pane (with a nice city-scene drawn) you can build upon. Got it? :)

As 'we' have to stay compatible with all those old tools, the best way would be to automatically convert all tiny lego pieces with the same look to one pane. Glueing them together. So we take all tiles that have the same meaning (like mentioned 4+ grass-tiles) and reduce them to one pane that uses a higher resolution texture, so this doesnt look repetitive.
Texturizing a grid/set of polygons with a texture is a highly optimized procedure. Since GeForce came up, this is effectively done by the GPU!

This way, they can also remove all those transition tiles simply by overblending the panes.
This way, the new client needs just one texture per tileset instead of multiple tiles.

Now they saw their 'dirt' texture, a tileset often used to create roads in 2D, doesnt look like a road anymore. So they created a new one, 'road stone', adding one new tile, patched this right into the map and it looked wonderful in KR.
So they decided to add the graphics to 2D as well to stay compatible, chopped them to different tiles to avoid that repetitive look.
But the map still contained one single tileid as KR just needs 1 to address the whole texture with transitions. Thus, it looks ugly with 2D.

Last comment: I don't know how it it is done at last, but for me, this seems to be the method of choice with the best performance- and effort-tradeoff


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:07 am 
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Kelon wrote:
But the map still contained one single tileid as KR just needs 1 to address the whole texture with transitions.


100% ack.

I did not know that the old "dirt" roadtile was only 1 tile. thx.

One Problem: Splatting textures works good with only a few >4-8. They use 200. A lot more.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:03 pm 
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SiENcE wrote:
I did not know that the old "dirt" roadtile was only 1 tile. thx.

One Problem: Splatting textures works good with only a few >4-8. They use 200. A lot more.


No, the old 'dirt tileset' consisted of a whole bunch of tiles for 2D with all transitions and such.

But it didnt look good in KR so they created a new 'road stone' tile/texture for KR with one single tileID.
Then, they replaced all the dirty roads with this id.
Just to see how it looks, i think.

And this worked fine in KR because of the technique mentioned above. Therefor, they probably forgot to use all the other tileIds while mapping.
*guessing*

But the 2D client requires all other tileIds for transitions etc, which were not used at this point by the map, so it looks so weird now.


tbh, I don't know much about texture splatting, so correct me, if i'm wrong. But the number of available textures shouldn't be that important, as there are max. 4 textures that have to be combined at 1 point. Perhaps even less. And this can be done through a pixelshader in one pass.
:wink:


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 1:00 pm 
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Quote:
No, the old 'dirt tileset' consisted of a whole bunch of tiles for 2D with all transitions and such.


That was my point too. "Dirt-tiles" are set of tiles not just one.

Quote:
Therefor, they probably forgot to use all the other tileIds while mapping.
*guessing*


Yep. I also think, they forgot to rotate the Dirt-IDs like in 2D.


Last edited by SiENcE on Thu May 31, 2007 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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